Nationals in St. Paul

[yall]

On Neal's point, I totally agree.....Yes, WashU (632), Rhodes (872), and Drake all sort of knocked eachother out, but that's the nature of the competition.  The fact of the matter is that Iowa did win, and they have clearly proven this year to be an excellent team.  We have had some of our best rounds this year against Iowa.  It's also not as if the aforementioned teams were the only ones at that tournament.  Iowa prevailed from the national championship in Des Moines, which consisted of a lot more than WashU, Rhodes, Drake, Furman, and the other teams everyone seems to be talking about.....They deserve credit for that....they won...period[/i]

[Joel T]

wow, I feel dumber for having caught up on this discussion.  What seems to be even more dissapointing is that the discussion seems to be propelled on the one side largely by mockgod, or Jimmy.  The reason this is so dissappointing is that despite his claims of godliness and what not, on more than one occasion had to listen as he tried to correct, not just other competitors and members from those programs that he claims to revere so much, but coaches and even an amta board member.

the fact is that with seemingly each post mockgod, you've had to clarify, take back, or reword your position against several well-placed attacks on your positions.  Enough's enough. Just admit that you were way off base from the beginning.  Then lets just get rid of the thread.

[Keirce]

Ok, getting sick of ranting, so please don't give me another reason to do this again.

I swear, I hate when people put words into my mouth.  Never once have I said I disrespect high school Trial.  I did high school Trial, I coached high school Trial for 3 years during college and our high school team was always one of the top two teams in Tennessee.  That said, I am quite aware of what Arizona mock trial is like.  I have never said that we don't do the same thing.  Come ON people, it's common sense.  It's A MOCK TRIAL.  Procedures are the SAME, no matter what.  What I am trying to point out is that different things matter as far as what you're judged on goes, when you're in college.  Why?  It's BECAUSE you do it better.  You can be the best damn hotshot high school attorney out there, and I guarantee you wouldn't stand a chance against Jason Butler.  I don't give a rat's ass if you think that you can beat every power program out there singlehandedly because you were the **** in high school.  It's just DIFFERENT.  In high school, judges are satisfied when you get through a direct with a pole stuck up your ass, but didn't use notes or make any huge mistakes.  That just doesn't hold up in college.  You have to learn to be better, and that involves changing your style.  I have already mentioned that the procedure for getting judges is different...so I am quite aware that most high school tournaments have a bunch of real lawyers involved.  Why?  Because most high school programs have affiliations with the Young Lawyers division of their local bar.  Those kinds of judges look for different things than you're going to see in college trial.  The ones college tournaments get who judge like high school judges are the worst you can ask for.  You get point fairies.  On a completely different matter, I'm not sure how old either of you are, but from what I remember, at least one of you is a freshman, meaning that you couldn't have been coaching high school trial for even an entire season now.  Just in my mind, I don't consider anyone a coach or teacher while they're still on my team.  Just for clarification, because I'm confused on that one.  I have watched my share of high caliber high school rounds, and I'm sorry, but if you pit one of the best high school attorneys out there with an open/direct/cross/close against someone in college, while the basic premise of each of these should be similar, you should see differences.  If your style doesn't change at all between high school and college, then have fun.  I have never once said that HS mock trial in no way prepares one for AMTA.  I have repeatedly said that yes, it gives you a foundation to start on, and a basic grasp of rules and procedures.  The fact that you want to tell me that you guys placed second in your regional because you did high school trial is just humorous to me.  I'm glad that you placed well, really, I am.  But until you guys sweep Nationals this year and beat a team composed completely of people who never did high school trial in the National final round, I will allow your placing at regionals to stand on its own, not on your high school backgrounds.

Now, please, if I've said something unclear or you are unable to interpret my English, ask a question.  Don't tell me that I said something I didn't.

[Keirce]

Oh, and Joel, I agree with you.  But remember, he was born for this.  Which makes him better than even Brad.  My boss shepard needs to use his shepard cane for laying down some martial law.

[JayZ]

...He's been studying it for six years.  I only hope he means he was studying AMTA and intercollegiate Trial all through high school, because if he was studying high school trial for four of those years, I'll laugh my ass off.... But, wait.  I'm going to disregard my high school years, because like I said, it has nothing to do with intercollegiate Trial, even if it was just an outlet for your genetic programming...

As a clarification of my argument, these are the points upon which I was rebutting. Keirce, if I misunderstood your position then I apologize. I meant no hostility nor did I mean to be putting words in your mouth. It was not my intention to build a straw man from your opinion, I simply wished to respond to these statemets (and other, contextually related ones) with what was my opinion based upon what I have observed first hand.

Also, while I'm clarifying, I have had four years participation and two years coaching of high school mock trial experience. I am a junior, Mr. God is a sophomore (neither of use are freshmen.)

Again, I meant no hostility, I was simply rebutting these statements, or at least what I percieved the meaning of these statements to be. I will not add anymore to this discussion because any further argument on my part would only serve to  inflame the issue.

So... how about them Suns? Stoudemire's the next Moses, and ain't anybody gonna convince me otherwise. Kid's got game.

Oh, wait, I should be steering the conversation back to the thread title... um... so how do y'all think Stoudemire would do in St. Paul? From what I've seen, his fifteen foot jumper is coming along nicely, but he still doesn't quite got his causation argument pounded out for his closing. Got to work on those fundementals.

[Keirce]

Thanks for the clarification.  And the lines you were rebutting, taken in context with the rest of what I said explained that there were things that were the same or provided building blocks, but that when I say "had nothing to do with"...well...see above.

And the Suns were only cool when they had Sir Charles.

[JeremyATor]

On a completely different matter, I'm not sure how old either of you are, but from what I remember, at least one of you is a freshman, meaning that you couldn't have been coaching high school trial for even an entire season now.  Just in my mind, I don't consider anyone a coach or teacher while they're still on my team.

For clarification, I am the freshman you seem to be referring to.  Jay-Z already clarified this point.

I would like to make a point about judges.  Something needs to be done about AMTA judging.  When coaches from other teams are judging rounds, the process becomes unfairly biased.  What the hell is the point of having team numbers in place of the school names if coaches, who invariably know the teams, are judging?

Combined, my team and I have around two decades of mock trial experience, and yet, this is our first year--draw whatever conclusions you'd like from that point.  I submit, that the experience we have received here in AZ is, in some respects, better than the collegiate experience.  This primarily a result of real judges with years of experience judging the trial rounds.  When other coaches are brought in to judge other teams, the system becomes a farce.

By the way, Keirce-- and with all due respect-- starting listening to yourself when you speak.  Maybe then you will begin to understand the debate you're getting yourself into.


Tor

[Keirce]

Actually, Tor, I wasn't referring to you.  You hadn't even entered my mind.  I'm perfectly capable of knowing what I'm writing, thank you.  Those last couple big posts of mine were, as I stated clearly, rants.  Rants don't always follow a logical flow, and that's fine.  I was simply getting sick of people trying to 702 themselves.  I get grated very easily by people who inflate their egos to the size of weather balloons so that they can make sure we see them.  Hence, I ranted.  That's why I hopped on mockgod early on.  I apologize for making my assertions about what you thought about the Miami round.  And do know that it's not just you I get onto when the cockiness starts to rear its ugly head.  I do this to a lot of people.  I respect people who go out there and prove their thing.  On that level, second at your regionals is a statement.  Do it, don't talk it.  That's what is respectable.  Then I wouldn't end up repeating that kind of talk and people could go about their business of proving themselves in the courtroom.  Of course, this is just what I respect...

I know very well the debate I got myself into.  Otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered to get into it in the first place.  We have already long ago established that something needs to be done about AMTA judging.  I am on that bandwagon.  You should not have coaches judging at a regional competition...if you did, that should be corrected.  There are no coach judges at nationals.  Coaches are perfectly suited to judging at invitationals, but really, they're just glorified scrimmages.  And they do have their benefits.  As do law students who did Trial.  

I have never tried to argue that there are not parts about high school trial that are better-run that it's collegiate counterpart.  Personally, I think that the adopted FRE we used in high school were much more complete than the ones we use in AMTA, and my freshman year, I remember thinking that the rules I was now using in college was a step down.  The judging pool in high school is great because they are usually pretty consistently handled through bar associations.  All I was saying is that the standards are different.  The standards should be different, but that certainly doesn't mean that current AMTA standards should not be re-evaluated.  I hope they will be.

Now, can we please take Jay-Z's advice and MOVE ON??

[ArizonaMock]

I had a long, angry post here...but nevermind. You're right Kierce. I know nothing. I was wrong. Hopefully I'll see you at Gold with the Rhodesians.

[ArizonaMock]

Please note, I have a new title. I'll earn the old one.

[JhawkRyan7]

Not if the true and only owner, Mr. Bloch, gets to 500 posts first. Altho he may choose a different name

[ArizonaMock]

Ok, Mr. Bloch can be the MockGod. Can I just be "left alone"?

[Keirce]

Sure you can be.  But I won't accept being right, meaning you know nothing, since I only said that I get annoyed when people try to basically prove WHY they know something.  I take it as a given that everyone on this board has knowledge of the MT world...everyone participates in the same game, so I just don't think anyone has the need to establish their quals.  Hell, I apologized for being wrong, and then I explained why I jumped on the offensive.  I'll even jump on friends of mine for the same thing, but I'm certainly not trying to imply they know nothing, just trying to show them that they don't need to validate the source of their wealth of knowledge.  You have just as much of a basis for an opinion as the rest of us do, just by participating.  On that, I'm extending a truce offer...I apologize, recant any anger, and vow off long annoying posts in this area of discussion.  Whattaya say?  

[ArizonaMock]

[Scooby Doo]

So.... is there a volunteer to get a comprehensive St. Paul list a-goin'??